Curse

elektra_lucia · Oct 15, 2007, 02:26 PM // 14:26

Hi (warning, this thread is going to be a lot of writing),

I'd like to start off by saying this is not so much of a rant but just to give you things to think about. I would like this topic to stay alive. I would prefer it not be locked because it sounded like a rant. I would also like to add that I think there has been plenty of threads whining about discrimination but none explaining why.

I did not want to be a liar and say I have tried to help low rank people, or say I have debated with one of them when indeed I hadn't. So over the past few weeks especially, I have been doing nothing but trying to help low rank people.

When I was low rank I always wished that someone would help me. Someone high rank, and someone would let me join groups. I believed that I played like a rank10, so I should be allowed in rank10 groups. So I vowed to myself when I became higher ranked, I would help low rank people. By the way, I played like a rank10, about as much as my dog does when I leave the keyboard on the floor and he walks on it.

I recently set-up a guild, in fact to try help low rank. Now I had the view, maybe it's optimistic, maybe it's just plain ignorant and illogical (who knows) - a low rank person can be better than a high rank person will ever be. A rank3 won't be as stubborn as a rank9, and often a rank9 won't improve. There's no two ways about it, I was wrrrrrrrrrooonggggggg.

You will find a talented player amongst 200 people and I am in no way being sarcastic when I say 200 people. The problem is, every low rank player thinks he's that talented person who can keep up with people that have much more experience.

I had a debate with a guy, sure it wasn't a great debate because he was one who deemed himself intelligent yet clearly wasn't. He said that he played like rank8's so should be let in rank8 groups. He said that rank means nothing. I asked him his main profession. He said monk, I'm not too experienced on ritualists or paragons. For some reason I always deemed them some what lame and wanted to refrain from using them in my groups. I do; however, have most of my experience from melee/monk. So, I began to ask him some questions. Maybe inspired me from tommy's thread on quitter about his estimation that only 1% of monks weapon switch every cast.

I said to this low rank person, how often do you weapon switch? Not very often was his reply. I asked him why, he explained that he did not need to, if he was stuck in low energy set he would not be able to cast. To me, isn't this where practice (experience) helps you? Someone with experience won't find it takes him too long to cast. I explained that the resurrection signet only gives you 25% energy when you res, so dying in low energy helps. Having mods to protect, give enchant, fast cast, and fast recharge are all needed differently at different times. For example, back in the boon prot days, I would always want to use 40/40 inspiration magic. He says, this won't make much of a difference. So it's not worth bothering with. I explained that e-denial will make differences too. You guessed it, he was too stubborn to accept my word on that and for me to criticize his skill, he had to join a group of mine.

Keep in mind this is just one example. Other examples of what low rank players do wrong:

Slow reaction. Stand in AOE. Call wrong targets. Don't see unprotted targets quickly enough. Don't infuse fast enough. Cast in the wrong order. Spike with a fast casting set and mes up the spike. Positioning is terrible. Try to tank. Bring wrong skill bars.

Now you (you being: low rank player reading the thread) might deem yourself better than these low rank players. You might think your positioning is good, casting is fine, etc etc etc. The problem is, because you don't have the experience to note other mistakes you make. It's kind of like going into a dark room, being expected to find gold, when you didn't even know you were in the room to be looking for something. The point I'm making is, if you don't have the experience to know you're making a mistake, then it is sometimes easy for you to think you aren't, simply because you don't realise you're making it.

My observations (and I have been in low rank groups so I can be honest about this whole issue) are that a low rank player will tell me how a player in the team is playing terrible. Yet, the player PM'ing me this, is playing terrible themselves too. They just don't notice it.

If it is true that on average, rank meant nothing. Then why would one search for a high rank group? If the success rate is the same, why not make your own group and play with people? Because you know, low rank people AREN'T as good (on average) as high rank people.

So by trying to talk defend low rank players as skilled people, you're hurting your main point which is that you want to join high rank groups. Sure some high rank people will set off timers, sure some will just plain suck but the AVERAGE is that higher rank people are better.

With that in mind, why would a high rank player, want low rank players in team? Not only that, but when players offer 2.5k per fame and another is a whiny tool, who would you rather accept?

Often low rank people think high rank people should give them a chance. Why? Just why? I can't count the amount of abuse I've had from people of low rank.

Now, about the guild business. I made one with the goal that I could get low rank players to a high level and win a lot. Since I enjoy playing without vent, I believed that low rank players would be more willing to play like this (I was right). Vent can be annoying, usually it's lead by a player who has this attitude, Hi I'm young dumb, fulla cum which is a surprise because so often their balls haven't dropped.

I recruited on the basis that people would not be stubborn, they'd be loyal, and they'd improve.

So what do I find:

People leave after losing.
People repeatedly ask to play lame builds.
People just want fame.
People break every relaxed rule made.

These low rank people that think they're good, who clearly aren't good. Are not willing to put in the effort to become good. It's then I realised, that low rank player I used to be, who vowed to help low rank people when he was high rank. Actually isn't the same after all. I have always wanted to be good at things, whether it swimming, flying, driving, playing computer games. I just get annoyed with myself if I'm bad.

But who I am, is not them. 99.5% of you simply do not care if you're good. You just want bambi, wolf or tiger put on your account so you can go back to PVE and annoy some people.

I put interrupts on the build. I think they're a good thing to learn. I made it pressure based so there really wasn't a need for vent.

I found that one player whined about Vent. Great, but I have to ask myself. Did vent stop the mesmer missing the interrupt of EVERY SINGLE ward. Did the vent stop the warrior from going on non-protted targets. Sure these are mistakes high rank people make but not as often.

I had recently been in a debate about frenzied defense on here. Amusing because I had the same argument with a guy in the guild. Low rank, obnoxious player who thinks he's better than everyone. He explained that it's fine in RA and it works. You know, using shield of judgement in droknars against the trolls works sometimes but it doesn't make you a good monk and unlike droks, you won't ALWAYS fight trolls, you will sometimes fight good players. So to those who think something is good because they win with it, you're wrong. Now I could not get through to him that the skill was bad, I asked him to read up on it, he wouldn't. So when people say practice makes perfect, sure but only GOOD practice makes perfect.

All this experience you have from PVE or RA, may not be worth a damn for HA. This isn't always the case, but it sometimes is.

So I suggest to the low rank people. You go read up on whatever profession it is you like to play. You might find you make more mistakes than you realise, and you might find you start to improve. If you really ARE good you will be asked to play with others. Another thing, I may say people are bad when they are. Often this gives the wrong impression, like I am arrogant and think I'm good. This is not the case, I think I'm bad too. The point is, often the low rank people, you think you're better than what you are. That's why you seek high rank groups. You think you're better than the low rank people and you deserve better, you think you deserve to play with high rank people.

You don't... You don't deserve the steam of a high rank players piss.

Above all, If it really is true low rank people don't have a difference in skill, then don't ask for a high rank group.

You have no reason to want to play with them, do you? After all, most of them are mean and don't want you in their group

P.S. Not even I write such long threads normally, but I have a cold and nothing else to be doing =D.

*edit*

I would appreciate it that people write on the forum, please do not PM me in game for help. I will join a group if I'm in the mood (any rank) but I do not go out of my way to help people. Please do not keep asking for help, it's annoying.I made a thread to help people:http://guildwarsguru.com/forum/showt...php?t=10231539

Now don't expect special treatment. If you want help, help yourself. Don't expect everything to be laid out for you.

Kyp Jade · Oct 15, 2007, 03:23 PM // 15:23

Quote:

Originally Posted by elektra_lucia

Good Post here

QFT

Good post, will be closed soon due to low ranks whining.

Edit by Mokone:

just a note on this topic -- heavy whining will be bombed if it takes over, it's a good thread and should stay as long as it can. i'm not gonna comment on this for now, so sorry for abusing your post Kyp, but i'd rather do it here than ruin the topic with a +1, lol.

so yes, warning, don't spoil this thread with whining.

BlackEagle · Oct 15, 2007, 03:56 PM // 15:56

The post is a bit inflamatory, I agree with a lot of what you say.

I agree with what you said, being high ranked doesn't make you good, being low ranked doesn't make you bad. But a higher proportion of high ranks are good.

I have played in quite a few low ranked groups recently, and the basic skill level, and more importantly, understanding of the game is very, very low.

People get better by playing with better people a lot of the time, so a high ranked person is more likely to have played with decent players than a low ranked player. eg. when on low ranked teams, I have been told to stop calling high energy sets/low energy/hexes etc. because it clutters vent, but you just don't get that so much in high ranked teams, because some of the people have atleast played with decent players even if they don't appreciate the reason for it being necessary.

Having said that, I have played with some truly terrible high ranked players, who geniunely believe they are good at the game simply because of the fact that they are high ranked. All being high ranked shows is that you have played a lot of HA, it doesn't suggest you are good, nor does it suggest that you are bad. Equally, a low ranked player could be good or bad, but as I said earlier more high ranked people are decent than low ranked people.

If you really believed you are good, keep playing, make friends in the game who are good and if you really are good you will get into those higher ranked groups. In all honesty though, getting into higher ranked groups is not that worthwhile, because a lot of the time they're just as bad, or don't appreciate if you are good and even though you get fame, you won't improve any more than you would have done.

milan · Oct 15, 2007, 04:17 PM // 16:17

Good points ruined by using a self promoting tone taking a small subset of HA players.

Keithark · Oct 15, 2007, 04:33 PM // 16:33

Agree with most of what you said, but please don't give up on noobs. I have about 3000 total hrs on GW and I am good at PvE because 2500 of those hrs were in PvE. I finally got sick of it because it became too easy and started RA and GvG most of the time. I am R1 glad, and have een in about 50-60 GvG's total. Have most of the skills unlocked and all the equip, etc. I know I am not good at PvP but I am willing to learn. I decided to try HA for the first time this weekend and I was there a long time due to not being able to find a group that wanted to run a team build, all I could do was get in randomway groups. Finally I did get to join a group that was not a rank group, but had a caller, tactics person, etc and got 26 fame. My problem is I don't see being able to get good by playing randomway and no rank groups will take me. My guild doesn't HA so If you or anyone else is willing to help a non-ranked person that knows he has a lot to learn I appreciate it and I am sure there are more like me out there (btw I normally play gon, elly, or ranger midline stuff) I don't know anything about relic running or any of the tactics in HA but unless I can get in a group that does I will never learn..that is why we look for ranked people to team with because 8 ppl that have played in a total of 20 HA's each you aren't going to learn anything

Pae · Oct 15, 2007, 04:58 PM // 16:58

There's also the bit about how much people are willing to learn. No matter whether someone is high or low ranked, you'll always get people who are just flat out clueless but won't take advice and think that they know everything. Due to the supposed "betterness" that some (note: not all) high ranked believe they have, it's often a bit better with low-ranked/unranked people.

Kyp Jade · Oct 15, 2007, 05:33 PM // 17:33

I am making a lot of assumptions in this post, and Im eating atm so sorry if I rush and alienate someone

You can seperate high rank players into two categories.
Farmers //may or may not be good
Good Players // they know what they are talking about

You can seperate low rank players into two categories
Want to be Famers // getting there
Want to be Good players //working for it

Now, niether the farmers or the want to be farmers care, they will just play some gimmick or FoTM build and get fame/ HoH chest drops. The want to be farmers are still relativly new, say 0-6 months into the HA arena, and still figuring out whats up. Dont hear too much QQing from them really.]

The good players, they dont care, they will run whatever they want, win or lose meh, these guys want fun matches, and want to roll over famers and noobs with better tactics / strategies (a lot of the fun went away when most of the maps changed to simple annihilation maps btw; 4 of the same objective ftl)

Now, the want to be good players is the group you will hear most of the QQing from. These guys want to be able to compete at a high level, yes they want fame, but they want it at the rate good players get it. The biggest problem for them is the learning curve to get there. The whole point of thier QQing is they want the fame income the good players have, without learning how they do it. They want to jump straight from novice to expert.

The other lousy thing is that you have to keep playing HA regurly to stay good. I quit HA for a awhile after they added alliance battles to it. Getting back into the game, and now im a nearly r10 want to be good player. (so much for rank eh).

And then a lot of it is player limitations.
You can only develop your skill o so far.
Experience can only condition you o so much.

aznhalf · Oct 15, 2007, 05:38 PM // 17:38

Sounds pretty spot on to me. GW has always been a prime example of the Dunning-Kruger Effect.

Back when I was <R4 I basically considered myself as competent as any of the high ranks. Now that I have a little more experience I know that I was constantly out of position, suggesting bad tactics, and putting together poor bars. I can now also see that I have room for improvement even today, whereas before I considered myself at the top of my game.

Now the people who recognize their own inabilities at a earlier point than I did are the ones that I don't mind picking up even if they're low ranked.

Ekelon · Oct 15, 2007, 06:05 PM // 18:05

AMEN TO THAT

Elektra you pretty some up most of my arguments against arrogant low-ranked players. Thank you for a well, thought-up, topic explaining this. At first I did think it was a flame post though, you should change the name to "Why Higher ranks look down on low ranks". Would've made me more excited to read this haha.

Nadia Roark · Oct 15, 2007, 06:12 PM // 18:12

Quote:

Originally Posted by milan

Good points ruined by using a self promoting tone taking a small subset of HA players.

If you can't handle a "self-promoting tone," you shouldn't be on the internet. The very fact that we're posting here presupposes such a tone, since we are all clearly interested in expressing our opinions (e.g. promoting our views). If they're good points, they're good points. To hell with the "tone," no one should care.

But yes, I've experienced similar results over time, although in my experience I've had an easier time getting lower-ranked people to do what I want them to do. I've had much more success getting <r9's to change their bars than I've had from >r9's, and part of the reason for this may well have to do with the fact that I use vent and talk to them, rather than attempting to do all of my talking in the somewhat restricted GW chat interface (seriously dude, the character limit is like... fifty). I'll agree that lower ranks won't admit they suck, but who would? I was terrible when I started monking at r5--I didn't know what pre-prot was and I'd sometimes go whole minutes without noticing I had no channeling: that doesn't mean I'd have admitted it at the time. I still make some mistakes that a r9 probably shouldn't make, but not as often as I used to.

Your aversion to ventrilo has always had me curious: I've never for the life of me been able to figure out why you so staunchly refuse to use it, especially when you're trying to lead the group and play frontline. You may have been right a year ago, but with maps like murderball in Halls and not one but two split maps, you need vent to get any significant amount of fame. I've occasionally managed to farm some decent fame without vent, but that's always been the exception rather than the rule. Part of the reason I play monk is so I don't have to pay as much attention to it, but it's still important to hear things like "3 has relic" or "that door's about to close, push through it."

Stub · Oct 15, 2007, 06:23 PM // 18:23

whoa, never thought of it that way. I'm R4, and it's been a grueling process, but it's been my goal to improve, and hope that those I play with improve too, so we can become more successful.

Lorekeeper · Oct 15, 2007, 06:33 PM // 18:33

Quote:

Originally Posted by Nadia Roark

Your aversion to ventrilo has always had me curious: I've never for the life of me been able to figure out why you so staunchly refuse to use it, especially when you're trying to lead the group and play frontline. You may have been right a year ago, but with maps like murderball in Halls and not one but two split maps, you need vent to get any significant amount of fame. I've occasionally managed to farm some decent fame without vent, but that's always been the exception rather than the rule. Part of the reason I play monk is so I don't have to pay as much attention to it, but it's still important to hear things like "3 has relic" or "that door's about to close, push through it."

yeh sometimes it can be so relaxing to take off the headset and go into auto pilot... sometimes i dont even tell my team i am not listening to the on vent. HA can get stressful at times and after a long day at work it can be rather refreshing to play in silence.

great thing is, the more you do it, the better you get at the game. Its like blindfolding yourself and walking to the local shop (not that ive ever tried) as long as you dont die i would assume that every time you attempt it you get just a little bit further until one day you might just reach the store, but finding what you want in the store is another thing!

lol hows that for a silly metaphor.

Nadia Roark · Oct 15, 2007, 06:43 PM // 18:43

Yeah, I do it too from time to time, but if we hit forgotten shrines, HoH or Antechamber, the headphones come back on.

Lorekeeper · Oct 15, 2007, 06:49 PM // 18:49

Quote:

Originally Posted by Nadia Roark

Yeah, I do it too from time to time, but if we hit forgotten shrines, HoH or Antechamber, the headphones come back on.

yeh i think once you get to the local store the blindfold should come off, lest you reach out and grab the wrong things ><

or maybe i should drop that metaphor?

Ensign · Oct 15, 2007, 07:03 PM // 19:03

Quote:

Originally Posted by Kyp Jade

Now, the want to be good players is the group you will hear most of the QQing from.

The point is that the people crying up a storm about rank elitism are not good players, and more importantly do not want to be good players. They are shitters that are utterly convinced that they are good players, and are mad that they are not getting their due. They want the trappings, not the underlying ability - and have attitudes that preclude them from ever developing that ability.

elektra_lucia · Oct 15, 2007, 07:34 PM // 19:34

Nadia:

Lorekeeper has kind of covered some of it with his odd metaphor.
I guess some maps now though require vent I guess. I'm not 100% convinced but I'm willing for a point to be taken there

.

I've given off the wrong impression. I do like to use vent. Sometimes it's annoying when a bad caller runs the group into the ground though.

I think if I'm teaching people to play, low rank and I'm monking. It's going to be hard for me to tell people what to do anyway. So the option would be to have front line do it. Which leads to the caller running group into ground and group not thinking enough.

The reasons for not talking are separate. There's several reasons but I will talk if family goes out. Old fashioned, and bugs me. Sounds pathetic, yes I know ;D. Other reasons are that: I dislike my skill level. Don't think my choices are 'worthy' at the time. Internet is no different to me than real life (how I act). I don't care for sycophants (and there's a lot of them when you speak on mic). Then there's the fact that guys like to always talk about women, drink, or just sound whiny (I wish they would have a long neck so I could strangle them all at once). I wouldn't mind but they lie a lot of the time. I sound stuck up sometimes, or give a false persona. Don't mean to.

Quote:

Originally Posted by milan
Good points ruined by using a self promoting tone taking a small subset of HA players.

Can you elaborate? I did not try to promote anything. My intention was to make low rank players think more before they deem themselves as good as high rank people.

Ekelon -
I am glad you approve, I have just got into hero battles. It is cool to see your name on the forum xD. I am shocked as many agreed as they did =D.

Quote:

The post is a bit inflammatory

Not much I can do about that. No low rank player wants to be told his chances of high rank groups are diminishing.

Quote:

but please don't give up on noobs.

Hmm, well generally I have. I will still play random ways or low rank groups but I will just be quiet or something. Not going to go out of my way to help people anymore.

Keithark · Oct 15, 2007, 08:15 PM // 20:15

Quote:

Originally Posted by elektra_lucia

Nadia:

Hmm, well generally I have. I will still play random ways or low rank groups but I will just be quiet or something. Not going to go out of my way to help people anymore.

And that is prolly part of the reason you see all the threads asking why GW PvP is "dead" Nobody wants to help anyone for anything..and I am not talking about just getting in a group and getting fame, but getting in a group and getting instruction if I am doing something wrong so that next time I can do better. (btw I don't think GW PvP is dead..it has just started in the past 4 months for me)

Despozblehero · Oct 15, 2007, 08:26 PM // 20:26

My guild is infamous for trying to help new players... 99 out of every 100 is exactly how you describe... Theyre whiny, lazy, they have a "Im so great at 123 and you being more experienced doesnt matter" attitude, they have a "leave in 2 seconds cause youre not holding my hand 24/7" reflex also, and generally just want the flashy HA emote. The 1 out the 100 that we get thats awesome Id have to say make the 99 worth it though... generally irl people are like this anyways, Ive just gotten used to it.

elektra_lucia · Oct 15, 2007, 08:38 PM // 20:38

Quote:

And that is prolly part of the reason you see all the threads asking why GW PvP is "dead" Nobody wants to help anyone for anything.

There's plenty of advice on the forums, other websites, etc etc. They will inspire things you may have not paid so much attention to before or simply not noticed.. I have tried to help people it ended up in disaster. GW is dying because the game is old and it is not balanced. Those are the main reasons. There's other reasons which may be a part of it, but that's just it. A PART. I forgot to add one imperative thing to my post. It maybe upsetting when a player doesn't get his rank three but that's only 180 fame. People above rank nine need so much fame for their next rank. It is no wonder they don't help people . They want fame too.
There is other things too, what about the times I play in a low rank group, we lose and some one thinks it's cool to bambi spike? You think I'm going to want to help those eight people get fame?

Quote:

you see all the threads asking why GW PvP is "dead"

Well this thread was aimed about rank discrimination and not PvP dying. Really if you want help do something to deserve it.

Quote:

but getting in a group and getting instruction if I am doing something wrong so that next time I can do better.

The group probably doesn't know to help either... So you play with low rank people, in the same boat. Just improve over time, a long time I might add.
A high rank player has had all those times, and it'd be unfair to inflict it upon him again unless he wanted too... Which, by the way. I did want to help people and I got let down ^_^.
There is no sarcasm intended here, and it's exactly how it happened:
I made a build. Extremely easy to run, not lame, it was just straight forward. Took a couple of hours to make... Problems I encountered:
Skills were never used properly, interrupts, enchant removal, you name it. All messed up. The one what got me the most

'hey let's make six SH ele's and two monks.'
No joke, some guy said that.

Don't assume these people are a small amount of people, they're not they're a VERY high percentage of low rank players. *edit* As said above :P.

P.S. To the people who spent hours in PVE and got into PVP and hate HA for it's rank discrimination. Tell me, how many free droknars runs did you give in PVE?

.

kosh · Oct 15, 2007, 09:49 PM // 21:49

putting aside the fact that most of this is true.

the way i see it, a.net has about 4 mil people that have bought gw (to some extant). think back a year, year&half ago. beside iway, people were always qq about how hard it is to get into a decent group and get fame with out playing lame builds. i think that we all know that the high percentage of gw customers are pve. so for me it seems that a.net push the avarge players into bad playing by giving them tools to do so (started with rits, sin that do 12345, trees, para, rao.. you name it). and i can understand them. for the average pve player who once in a while pvp, all those class,skillz,builds are much easier to handle.

a.net job it to sell this game. if most of the community cry about how "hard" it is for them to play pvp, well then something had to be done. and they did.

you hear less and less casual pve players complain about pvp now less then ever.

so yes.. people now mostly want cheap fame and do not care how they wil obtain it, as long they do.
but some of the blame (if not most of it) comes from a.net itself for promoting bad players to play bad builds that require nothing (no vent, no calling, no tactics. just storm the other team and hope to live trough it).

btw. imo a.net vision did not start this way (Prophecies campaign wit the Crystal Desert missions, which gave the basic objects of HA, Zaishen Challenge which gave a good clue of builds you will face) but somewhere along the way a.net have noticed that those tools were not exactly helping anyone, and so they moved on. the other solution, was and still. make pvp easier by giving powerful skills to bad players.

so after all that being said. who is to blame more? the players that abuse builds and want free fame? or a.net that give them the tools to do so?

its a never ending math Equation.